Curse

Mac Sidewinder · Jan 15, 2008, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masao

They did not use deceptive advertising. I already gave a thorough legal analysis of the offer and it is in fact valid and it's your fault for not foreseeing the most reasonable actions which ANet has undertaken to increase the marketability of their product. Do not act as though you know what deceptive advertising is.

Gaile is a know-nothing PR person who isn't even communicated information by the developers. Nothing she says should be taken as fact until confirmed by the majority community.

First of all I never said anything about what they did as being illegal so spare me the "legal analysis". Secondly Gaile is as much a part of Anet as anybody else so when she says something its the same as coming officially from the company, since that is her job by the way. And lastly don't persume to be aware of what I know or don't know about deceptive advertising.

Anet knew through Gaile that alot of their customers were asking the question about whether or not this was an exclusive one time offer or not. They chose to talk around the subject and let alot of customers believe that it was limited and exclusive. I believe this was to generate as much money as possible in the store. Quite a few people spent $30 on items they didn't necessairly want just to get the BMP. To me (and alot of others) this was deceptive.

Its fine if they offer it now but in the future they need to be more explicit about their offers and stand by them.

pumpkin pie · Jan 15, 2008, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shai Lee

@ pumpkin pie

They didn't say "WITH A PRICE TAG later for players who did not use the online store".

If they did, this thread wouldn't exist. If they did, the other thread with people asking Anet to redo the BMP due to technical/location/payment difficulties wouldn't exist. They wouldn't have been upset if Anet put in that line. They would just know for sure that it would be available later. But no, Anet made them upset by not stating that it would be redistributed later. Anet made them upset by not redoing the promotions -immediately- after they fixed the online store flaws. They did not have to wait 2-3 months to suddenly tell the community that they're reselling the BMP because barely now they're acknowledging how those people who couldn't get it before (through no fault of their own, I might add) were effected. Now they have 2 groups that are upset for circumstances relating to the same issue: they could have just added the line that you can buy it later if you didn't take part in the promotion.

sorry a lot of people feel that way. cos if you do, then you have a lot of company and merchant you need to get angry and upset with.

pamelf · Jan 15, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

sorry a lot of people feel that way. cos if you do, then you have a lot of company and merchant you need to get angry and upset with.

What makes you think we aren't? Besides, do you know how many companies and merchants have gone out of business because of stunts like this? This is now half a loyal player base that has been royally pissed off...these players are actually thining twice about making future anet purchases...these people have friends who might think of buying the game and be cautioned otherwise...

I'm not saying I'm in this category, since I'm willing to forgive anything once, but don't you see that comments like that are simply stupid? Anet DID screw up, as is evidenced by the amount of angry people. They didn't technically do anything 'wrong' but from a business perspective that is hardly the point.

I doubt this situation will spell the end for Anet, I'm just trying to show that marketing has to be handled a certain way. Once you've alienated your player base it's unlikely you're going to be getting them back.

VanDamselx · Jan 15, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

If you have read any of the forum threads in which I have been involved over the last couple of days -- and it's pretty hard to miss them -- you'll know that there are currently no plans to offer alternatives for the acquisition of the Bonus Mission Pack.

Quote from BMP FAQ on July 5, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theosebes

Originally Posted by Theosebes
I do have a question Gaile: Will the bonus mission pack be available as a seperate purchase in and of itself for those that have already purchased all they want to purchase from the online store, so don't really have anything to spend money on there, and plan on buying GW:EN in a retail store? I do hope there will be an alternative way to aquire these....

I just do not have any information about any plans for this in the future. I do know there are no plans at present, if that helps at all.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10216946

Quote from Gaile Gray on November 11, 2007- After the promotion was over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I am still talking to marketing about this. There will not be a give-away — there is no way to justify that. But making the BMP available via other means may be possible. But those other means might still require a credit card, and for that, I’m sorry, but there are a lot of realities to deal with here, along with frustrating delays in getting more means to pay.
I do want you to know that I strongly believe the Bonus Mission Pack SHOULD be available via other means, especially since we closed the option to purchase the PvP Packs a few weeks ago, meaning that some folks were out of luck (as mentioned above).

--
It was not very clear when the promotion first occurred that the BMP would be available at a later date. No one could seriously tell me that from what Gaile said when the information was first released that they could have thought it would be released at a later time, even if it wasn't free. While I don't believe it is necessarily a scam for releasing it now, I do feel like I was kind of shafted. It seemed that the BMP would only be released at that point and the only way to get it would be through that promotion. I agree that the fancy text only says that implies it would be offered for free, but from Gaile's original posts, it seemed that it would not be released at a later time. Only after the large complaints came (and some of them very justified), that it seemed it would be released. When news of the BMP came and how to qualify many responses were like this:

1. I will qualify for the promotion by whatever means possible (buying a campaign, character slots, GW:EN, etc.)

2. It's not worth it because the missions will probably suck

3. The rewards will probably suck further (see Endgame Greens, "Not another mini...")

4. The content itself is not worth what I would need to buy in the online store

5. I can't because I don't have access to a credit card, my credit card got rejected due to fraudulent claims, support issues.

Once the rewards were released, it caused a huge uproar. No one expected them to be as good as they were. I was quite surprised as well, but I wanted more playable content from the BMP, the rewards were a non-factor for me.

I'm not complaining about it being re-released for purchase, and please do not accuse me of doing so. I just think there were a lot of discrepancies about the BMP for both sides, and I'm sort of pissed about it.

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by booooYA

It was not very clear when the promotion first occurred that the BMP would be available at a later date. No one could seriously tell me that from what Gaile said when the information was first released that they could have thought it would be released at a later time, even if it wasn't free.

If you're going by those quotes to form this opinion, I really don't see what you mean. She says quite clearly that "there are currently no plans," and "I do know there are no plans at present;" and neither say "we will not offer this again," or "there are no plans, nor will there ever be plans," etc. Instead of trying to read into her quotes, you could just plain read them as they are. There is that possibility that maybe, just maybe, they really didn't have plans to release the BMP later at that point in time. You think?

I don't see lies, or false advertising, or scam, or even a stretch of the truth in any shape or form.

pumpkin pie · Jan 15, 2008, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

What makes you think we aren't? Besides, do you know how many companies and merchants have gone out of business because of stunts like this? This is now half a loyal player base that has been royally pissed off...these players are actually thining twice about making future anet purchases...these people have friends who might think of buying the game and be cautioned otherwise...

I'm not saying I'm in this category, since I'm willing to forgive anything once, but don't you see that comments like that are simply stupid? Anet DID screw up, as is evidenced by the amount of angry people. They didn't technically do anything 'wrong' but from a business perspective that is hardly the point.

I doubt this situation will spell the end for Anet, I'm just trying to show that marketing has to be handled a certain way. Once you've alienated your player base it's unlikely you're going to be getting them back.

At least be angry at the right party, read booooYA's Gaile Gray quotes.

VanDamselx · Jan 15, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

If you're going by those quotes to form this opinion, I really don't see what you mean. She says quite clearly that "there are currently no plans," and "I do know there are no plans at present;" and neither say "we will not offer this again," or "there are no plans, nor will there ever be plans," etc. Instead of trying to read into her quotes, you could just plain read them as they are. There is that possibility that maybe, just maybe, they really didn't have plans to release the BMP later at that point in time. You think?

I don't see lies, or false advertising, or scam, or even a stretch of the truth in any shape or form.

What pisses me off about your post is that you assume that I have zero reading comprehension. Basically, what I said in my post was that it was completely unclear as to whether or not it would be available in the future, so those who jumped on early should not get bitched at for making a bad decision. I thought there was no other way, and it was not until after the promotion was over, when the complaints really started rolling in, that I felt it would be released. I'm not calling false advertising, lying, or scam so please don't put words in my mouth. I even said I don't believe it's a scam in my post. Gaile's first quote implies to me that I had to act during the promotion to ENSURE and be 100% CERTAIN that I would have access to the BMP. That's my biggest gripe.

I'm just saying I could have saved myself some cash if I had known what I do now. Being a poor college kid making minimum wage, paying $10 (for the BMP only) versus $40 for GW:EN + the BMP would have been nice.

pamelf · Jan 15, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

At least be angry at the right party, read booooYA's Gaile Gray quotes.

my god...they're the same party...Gaile is hired by Anet to do the job that she is doing. She speaks for the company in these matters just as she speaks for us TO the company. She is not exclusive to Anet...she IS PART OF Anet. Therefore that point is completely moot...

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by booooYA

Gaile's first quote implies to me that I had to act during the promotion to ENSURE and be 100% CERTAIN that I would have access to the BMP. That's my biggest gripe.

But the thing is, that is the 100% truth about it. You did have to jump on it to be sure. They didn't know, so we didn't know. No one knew! So, am I to understand that you're not necessarily upset with Anet, you're upset about the uncertainty of the situation? They purposely left it open because they wanted that possibility to be there in case they decided to release it another time. Again, I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by booooYA

so those who jumped on early should not get bitched at for making a bad decision.

Who, besides Anet, is getting bitched at, here?

Shai Lee · Jan 15, 2008, 06:36 AM // 06:36

I'm not angry, I'm disappointed. I am a little upset over how they handled it. I am a little upset when they mess with people's emotions. People who post here are GW fans, some are new some are old. We're FANS. We love Guild Wars. They don't have to beat around the bush to say what they don't mean but only put it that way to make me believe what they're saying. I'm a fan and I love Guild Wars, I do. I've been here nearly 3 years. I want to know a company's opinion when a FAN says: I don't trust you. I don't believe you. Can I really take what you're telling me at face value?

Fans don't need to be jerked around. Some have the opinion that Anet didn't mislead anyone with their legal jargon and have legal backgrounds to support this. I'm sorry but I'm not a legal anything. I'm a GW fan that needs 'Guild Wars for Dummies' when advertising is going to be presented, apparently.

I understand that a company is a company and they're out there for the almighty buck like any other company if they are going to be able to sustain their player base. I am not ungrateful that this game has no monthly fees. I love it because I would never play a game that had them. I like how they're techies are always trying to improve the game. I understand that it may not happen in the time we think it should, but hello all of us spoiled GW fanatics, this is a WORLD WIDE game. I'm not a techie but I do respect those that are because I at least have the concept that it's a hell of a lot of work. If I can't understand whatever C++ and other coding stuff is, then more power to the people that do. People are thinking: wow look at all these naive crybabies that thought this would never be sold in stores. Hello, nobody knew if they would or wouldn't but based on the PR it sure as hell seemed that way.

I've read all the Gaile bashing and I don't think it's placed appropriately. I do feel that Anet doesn't tell her as much as she's supposed to in order to accurately do her job. That isn't my relationship with Gaile, that is Gaile's relationship with the company. I understand that they may want to treat her as any other player so that she can experience things in the game on her own. However, given that she -is- the PR person, they can't really do that for her, as much as they'd like to. Why? Because the way we percieve our relationship with Anet is through Gaile as the medium. Anet doesn't tell her everything and therefore she ends up making false or misleading statements? That's Anet's fault. And if they think oh well, Gaile will take the blame for that one, then I'd have to say: wrong. How Anet treats Gaile also influences how I percieve them as a company. A company that possesses humanity or a company like any other and is driven solely by money instead of the human soul. Some may say it doesn't make a difference, and to some, it doesn't have to because your relationship with that company is different than my relationship with that company.

Those that knew this was gonna happen and that naive people that trust, like me, were going to get disappointed...good for you. You know how the world works, you can't trust anyone, and the world revolves around money. Please do me a favor and next time give me a head's up on the legal advertising jargon that is clear that I don't understand. I urge you to remind me that situations like this happen to stupid trusting people.

I hope that Anet remembers that a fan will trust and follow because they have a love for the game and it's best interests. There is no need or reason to do shady things to get us to fork over more money. If we do, it's because we enjoy this game and wish it to continue. If we do, it's because we think you're doing a great job with the game and want to see more of it and don't want it to end. This is not about the have's and the have not's. True, I made a decision and the decision was my own. I -chose- to buy $29.99 worth of stuff just to get a BMP. Did I believe it was now or never? Yes. As I stated before, I'm naive and I guess stupidly trusting to a fault. I gave up my love for having a box on display in my bookcase for the sake of getting something I thought I'd miss out on, that would no longer be available. For the sake of giving my money straight to a company that allows me to play a game I love, and eliminating the middle man.

Anyway, this is a long thread. A lot of thoughts/emotions/opinions. Based on our experiences, it's evident that we aren't going to agree on our perceptions on what is and is not misleading/implied/shady/etc.

No matter what our stance on this topic, I hope that we at least agree that it could have been handled differently and it could have been presented more clearly without so much uncertainty.

Now that I've let these feelings out, I'm going to go back to playing the game. My trust waivers and I'm not exactly the happiest person at the moment. I wonder if that matters to Anet, maybe I should ask them.

-------
Dear Anet,

I'm a GW fan and I love the game but I'm really disheartened over how the BMP situation was handled. My trust is waivering and I'm unhappy. What do you feel in knowing this? Does it impact you in any way or am I just being stupid and too trusting? Am I too naive and should grow up to how the real world is run and just expect that things like this are common and every day company practices?

Signed,
Stupidly Trusting/Believing/Fill in the Blank.
-------

*stops self from rambling more things!**presses 'post quick reply' for a reply that...wasn't so quick >.>* >.<

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Look, for the record, I personally also thought it was my only chance to get the BMP, and I did spend the money in time to get it. I'm in the 'same boat,' here, but I just don't see any reason to complain. I was able to enjoy the BMP way before others that didn't get it during the promotion because I took part in that promotion. I was able to get it "free" with my purchase, instead of spending $10 USD because I took part in that promotion. I don't feel jipped, or cheated, or scammed - at all. I guess I'm just having a hard time trying to understand why others do. Just seems like a huge misunderstanding and assumption that led to feelings of regret.

StormDragonZ · Jan 15, 2008, 06:57 AM // 06:57

I wanted EotN... I got the BMP with it. I have nothing to be angry at now that people can get it elsewhere.

What I am bothered over is the skins for Undead gold items. Rather... lacking...

VanDamselx · Jan 15, 2008, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

But the thing is, that is the 100% truth about it. You did have to jump on it to be sure. They didn't know, so we didn't know. No one knew! So, am I to understand that you're not necessarily upset with Anet, you're upset about the uncertainty of the situation? They purposely left it open because they wanted that possibility to be there in case they decided to release it another time. Again, I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

Who, besides Anet, is getting bitched at, here?

Many people are saying, you should have known, it's your own fault, etc.

I just find it incredibly annoying that I wasted money that I did not need to spend because there was at first no mention of any other means of the BMP becoming available. This is honestly hard for me to explain, because I can justify it in my mind but it's hard to express it in words everyone else can understand. I guess Gaile's quote forced me into thinking that I better act right away, rather than wait, due to the fact that I would miss out completely since she really makes no mention of possibilities in the future. You can imply that no current plans means just that, and that it can mean things will change. I don't think there should be any uncertainty in situations like these. Like, "For a limited time we will be offering the Bonus Mission Pack for free with any $29 USD purchase from the online store. At a later time after the promotion is over, the BMP will be offered as a standalone at a cost of $10." If I had known that, I could have made a different decision regarding the way I acquired GW:EN and the BMP.

I can understand this was an experiment. Basically, this is just for future reference, since obviously nothing can be done now.

And edit for arcanemacabre's last post: The major gist of the reason I am annoyed by this is because I had no intention of buying GW:EN upon release because I didn't have the money for it; however,I really wanted those missions because they sounded totally awesome (forget about the rewards!). In order to do this, I had to borrow money off a friend, and spend more money. If I had known that they would have released it at a different time, I know I could have saved myself some money and I wouldn't have had to borrow any. Working a minimum wage job at only 20 hours a week (more like 10 now that the holidays are over) while you're in college sucks. The $10-$20 I could have saved goes so far.

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Well, alright, I can see why you and others would be upset. However: upset at the situation, not Anet. These things happen. I don't think Anet, or Gaile even, should be blamed for this situation, though I do understand the frustration and anger needs to be vented somewhere.

I just remember back when I collected comic books and collector cards, there were many promotions similar to this - you buy so much, or a certain thing, and you get a special card or comic, whatever. The companies weren't as connected to their customers as Anet, so there wouldn't be any public announcements about what is special, or limited, or exclusive and what isn't. It would just be "collector" or "promotion" and many would get the idea that was it; this is your only chance to get this card or comic.

So, if it ever happened that that card or comic or whatever became available a different way, say mass-produced, or second run, or alternate printing, well, you'd just have to suck it up and deal. You'd get mad because you wasted money, or maybe got up real early to be at the store before others, only to have it re-released and your efforts wasted.

I can definitely understand the situation, and why people would be upset about it (I'm not on this situation since I was planning on getting GW:EN at release, anyway), but it's just not Anet's fault. I think Gaile worded her posts well, and I think they were very honest - they probably didn't know at the time, like I said. I also think it was a good decision by the company itself, both for their own profits, and for those who weren't able to get the BMP or just decided not to at the time.

But, I do see what you're saying. Maybe, in the future, they could have a more concrete plan, and make it clear what it is. It might have been better to offer this promotion and offer it in the store for $10 at the same time. So people could choose to get it 'free' with purchases they would normally make or buy it separately. Maybe, but as it stands, it's an inconvenience and it stirs up anger and frustration, but maybe some people (not saying you!) are taking it a bit too far and pointing fingers a bit too much.

]SK[ · Jan 15, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Im actually really annoyed about this. I really only bought GWEN via their online store as I was led to believe I wouldn't be able to get hold of this bonus pack unless I did. I much prefer retail purchases. I like boxes for some reason.

I should of known they couldn't help themselves and cash in on it.

ANET you really have let us down this time.

strcpy · Jan 15, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Look, for the record, I personally also thought it was my only chance to get the BMP, and I did spend the money in time to get it. I'm in the 'same boat,' here, but I just don't see any reason to complain. I was able to enjoy the BMP way before others that didn't get it during the promotion because I took part in that promotion. I was able to get it "free" with my purchase, instead of spending $10 USD because I took part in that promotion. I don't feel jipped, or cheated, or scammed - at all. I guess I'm just having a hard time trying to understand why others do. Just seems like a huge misunderstanding and assumption that led to feelings of regret.

As far as I can see the main difference falls into that "trust" category. Anet has, in most of those nearly three years I've been here now, earned said trust. As you seem to agree that they implied it was a limited time once only chance to get the BMP It just doesn't bother you that you were mislead. That reason seems to be that you always thought they would do such a thing so it's simply par for the course.

I really didn't blink when they asked me to purchase through the online store to get the BMP - they have always done as close to the right thing as they could. I have a certain amount of respect for a company that does that - especially as they get to a larger size (I expect that of locally owned stores - that is what you are spending extra over the chains for). Heck, if they had simply been up front I probably would have still done the same thing and been happy (again, more than happy to pay more for a company that I can trust). Even now there are ways to re-release the BMP that didn't make me feel lied too and yet they did about as wrong as that as they can (the whiners that felt the stuff would suck and let us pay for a beta are the ones that really made out - if it *had* sucked they would have called us chumps for purchasing it also).

However, this time not only were they less than direct (I wouldn't call it up to a lie, but misdirection) but called me stupid for believing them as apparently I am failing to understand what a promotion is. OK, I'll take their advice, call myself stupid, and know in the future to simply not trust them. I really can't see how they *ever* thought this would turn out well.

Gaile told me that is what I should do as an official response from Anet, then so be it. I don't know who that whole series of posts came from - from her mind or if that was simply passing on what she was told too. As such I can't blame her and see no reason to hammer her *specifically*. Of course, she is the liaison between us and the rest of Anet so the crap gets funneled to her even if I don't hold anything personal against her. I *do* hold something personal against those that thought this whole thing was a grand idea but I don't know who they are and since Anet (as a whole) supports it then I can't say I'm happy with them.

*shrug* they don't seem to be bothered that for the majority of people who found them a trustworthy company they moved into the standard "don't believe anything they tell you" and have catered to the "don't believe anything they say" crowd. As to if that will be bad or good in the long term I can't say, but I suspect that future "promotions" will have to be handled VERY differently or it will not sale well at all.

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

As far as I can see the main difference falls into that "trust" category. Anet has, in most of those nearly three years I've been here now, earned said trust. As you seem to agree that they implied it was a limited time once only chance to get the BMP It just doesn't bother you that you were mislead. That reason seems to be that you always thought they would do such a thing so it's simply par for the course.

I do think what they are doing is par for the course, I just don't call what they are doing "misleading." Think about the Game of the Year. Were the in-game items that came with it a special bonus? I think so. Did they choose to re-release them as a separate store purchase? Why yes, yes they did.

]SK[ · Jan 15, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

If it wasn't for the people already bought the game, the GOTY edition wouldnt exist. Not offering to sell that to existing customers would have been daft.

Saying one thing and doing another is a whole new ball game though which seems to be what's getting up everyone's back here.

arcanemacabre · Jan 15, 2008, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]SK[

If it wasn't for the people already bought the game, the GOTY edition wouldnt exist. Not offering to sell that to existing customers would have been daft.

Saying one thing and doing another is a whole new ball game though which seems to be what's getting up everyone's back here.

It was for sale for anyone who wanted to buy it. Not sure what you're getting at there. All they did is offer to sell the special items separately.

Also, they didn't say one thing and do another. You think they did by your understanding of what was said. That is the short and sweet of it.

EDIT: With regards to the GoTY edition: I'm not saying the situation is the same, though it is similar, my point is that looking back on it, selling the BMP in the store has a distinct echo of this past behavior. It doesn't seem like a stretch at all that Anet would do something like this, it's in their nature. How it was done may be pissing people off, but the actual act of re-releasing it is very much how Anet is - they want more people to have access to the content.

]SK[ · Jan 15, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

They worded it like that and from how it reads even Gaile had said in previous posts it seems she believed it too. I doubt they ever intended too resell it but they obviously changed their minds. From now on people will be untrusting when they say they are only going to offer A+B together only and not B on its own.

I know your trying to suggest that we read it wrong, but even their own staff read it wrong? Clever wording I guess leaving them with a small get out clause.